EWU06RR

I am thinking of using some octane boost for an upcoming track day to get a couple extra horses. Anyone have any brands they like to use or tips for using it. I have a power commander so I can adjust things if I need to. Are there any pros or cons of using it?

koorbloh

http://www.pnwriders.com/mechanical-...e-booster.html

http://www.pnwriders.com/mechanical-...-boosters.html


you're welcome

/wafp

Jengel451

Octane boost in a can is snake oil.

if you have a stock motor, using higher octane will probably take horsepower away. if you've never been on the track before, you will be more worried about slowing down and turning anyway. Anyone can go fast in a straight line.

tokin

Why? Save the money and have Barry Wressle set up your suspension for $40. Bigass yellow dunlop truck or ask anyone for Barry the suspension dude. Much better spent money.

theJrod

Yeah, your 600RR probably makes the most HP on midgrade, or even regular ol' 87.
Octane boosters are a joke, and higher octance actually hurts horsepower on stock motors.

Race gas makes more HP because it's oxygenated, not because of the higher octane.

gixer_racer

to each of the posts above.

Worry about things that are worth worrying about. Having Barry setup your suspension would probably be your best money spent after your trackday fees.
Pumpgas is more than adequate until you're running in the top 5-10 on race day...

EWU06RR

Thanks, I think I will just stick with reqular pump gas.

tophyr

In case you were wondering why: Higher octane fuel requires more energy to ignite, and burns more slowly than lower octane fuel. The only reason to use a higher octane fuel is if you've built your engine so that it has very high compression, and will "ping" using a lower octane. "Pinging" is when the fuel-air mixture gets so hot that it ignites itself before the spark, a condition that can cause severe damage to your engine.

JohnnyM

...and when burned the exhaust kinda smells like alcoholic cotton-candy...anyone else notice it?

gixer_racer

Love the exhaust smell of a bike on race gas.....raw race gas though is a bit too sweet smelling and overpowering after a few minutes.

odin544

exactly. higher octane gas has a higher detonation rating. That is all! and if you dont have the higher compression to take advantage of the higher octane you are waisting your money!

fastfoodfred

I don't think Barry will be at the best trackday this year-the one in Spokane that EWU06RR is talking about.

Steve, find any of the WMRRA racers in the pits (basically guys with # plates on their bikes) and ask nicely. Most of them will be more than happy to help get you at least in the ball park instead of the crappy OEM settings that are probably more for comfort than performance. Rick, Darrel, and the two Jims know how to read a tape measure for setting sag, and between all four of them, there should be at least one screw driver and a few allen wrenches for the damping adjustments.

bubba_zenetti

another pet peave of mine. increasing bmep does not increase hp. it increases torque. hp is increased by increaseing the amount of work not the average cylinder pressure

actualy MBTE is used an an oxygenate to raise the octane number of the fuel. it also acts as an oxidizer so it has to functions in gasoline. it is not the sole reason why you make more hp with race fuel. simply adding more oxygen to fuel does nothing to create more hp. as a matter of fact, adding more oxygen to standard plain jane pump gas will cause you to run leaner and in turn create less hp.the sole reason why they use MBTE in in todays fuels is to reduce emmisions from adding ethanol or methanol to gasoline as a filler. ethanol has a stiochmetic burn of 9:1 while gasoline is at 14.7:1. in order to produce a stiochmetric burn with ethanoil, you need to add more oxygen than what the vehicle is tuned for or bad stuff comes out the tail pipe (HCs).

ethanol and MBTE allows the gas companies to refine shitty gasoline and add both compounds as a filler to amke good gasoline. nothing like making it as cheap as possible and selling it to you for as much as possible.

on race fuel we have a different story. race fuel has a higher specific gravity comapred to regular fuel. since the amount of air pumped into your engine remains the same, adding denser fuel to the equation would cause a rich condition. as an example, lets say you run standard gasoline with a specific gravity or .700 on a normal basis. if you now run a race fuel with a specific gravity of .725 that is an incease in fuel by roughly 3.57%. this means you need to increase oxygen to your engine by that much more if the burn rate was 1:1. but since it is not the math would be slightly different and without going into long winded detail on numbers, i will just say, you need to add more oxygen to burn the fuel or torque will drop. since you cannot make your motor flow anymore air than it is flowing without making modifications to the intake tract, you need to do it with chemicals.

just remember it is always eaiser to stuff more liquid into a motor than air. hence why nitromethane is the best fuel around with a stichiometric burn rate of 2.5:1. who needs air right

on a side note MBTE is being phased out as they found out it is seriously poisonous. they got new four letter chemicals like TAME, ETBE and shit that sounds like desiger drigs for your cars now

bubba_zenetti

the correct term to what you are describing is detonation. not to be confused with preignition.

detionation can occur in low compression motors as well. it is caused by multiple flame fronts coliding with each other instead of one propagating flame front from a central point. motors with poor swirl can have detonation problems. or motors that run higher cylinder pressures on the compression stroke can have detionation problems (turbos, nitrous or dense fuels)

pre ignition happens when you have a single flame front caused by something other than the ignition source. a glowing peice of metal or a hot spot can cause pre ignition.


you can run higher octane fuel and create more torque on a stock motor if you tune the spark correctly. remember that toruqe is a function of pressure over time (BMEP) if the average cylinder pressure lasts longer during the 0-180degrees of crank rotaion during the power stoke, you make more torque. the slower burn rate of higher octane fuel means you can have more average pressure over time than faster burning fuels. the reason why higher octane fuel on a stock motor makes less torque is because the peak cylinder pressures occur at different times. you need to compensate for it by advancing spark.

xratedrr

Check out VP race fuels U4.2. Its leaded 102 octane, cant use it with a bike with cats though. Read about it online. Computer remapping generally isnt needed with it, only adds a few HP but there are other bonuses like better throttle response. Its expensive shit, so if you wanna spend $50+ on 5 gallons of fuel that really wont help a rider thats new to the track, thats probably one of the best fuels for you at this point. But im guessing that bike already has more on tap at the track then you are able to use.

odin544

why would you use a leaded fuel in a motor designed to run unleaded?

Serious question btw. im curious

fastfoodfred

Leaded fuel is good for a valve train, bad for exhausts with catatlytic converters. The lead would make the valve seat last longer. It had other uses in fuel, but that's all I remember from highschool auto shop-that and how to hot wire my dads car.

bubba_zenetti

tetraethyl lead is one of the best antiknock agents around. it is still used in av gas.

the only reason why you dont want to run it in a modern engine is it will ruin the catalytic converter. other than that, it makes valves seal better, it also lubricates the valves much better. but in todays modern engines, valve seat material, valve guides and the vavles themselves are made of much better materials and can live long lives without lead.

so the only reason why you would run it is higher resistance to knock. but you can also get that from ethanol, methanol or toulene as well.

FYI E85 has an octane rating of around 105. you can buy it at some safeways. since stioch for gasoline is 14.7:1 and ethanol is 9:1 you have a difference of 28.57 percent. that means all you need to do is paste a bunch of +28s to the map of your power commanders (or increase fuel by 28%), and if your injectors dont max out thier duty cycle, you are now running 105 octane alchohol (with a splash of gasoline) got a turbo? crank up the boost. got a set of J&E 14:1 slugs E85 is for you!

ddonacazx12

well, that and because race motors run optimum ignition timing for max power, higher static compression, (some of which is bled off at idle by longer cam overlap) but which under high heat / high load conditions (like a long race at wfo) can use the extra octane...

EDIT: yeah e85 is the shiznit... but I thought stoich for a alky motor was closer to 7:1 ? Or is that just Meth and Eth is 9 ?

FastCat

Just a note of caution about the different "race" fuels offered by VP. Read the data sheets, and follow their cautions/instructions. Some of the oxygenated fuels they offer are NOT ok to leave in the tank for any length of time and most of them should NOT be stored in plastic containers.

...you'll also notice that there is a wide range of specific gravity between the different "flavors" that VP offers.

The nice thing about VP fuel is that you *know* that once you put in the time to tune the bike to the gnat's @ss for a specific fuel, you will get the exact same fuel over and over again when you purchase VP. If you get it out of a pump, it can vary wildly from one day to the next.

koorbloh

one thing I've heard about ethanol is that it's hard on fuel systems? Are modern motorycle fuel systems going to be ok with ethanol?

Could I really buy a power commander, tune it as you say, and then run e85 in the sv?

(whether I actually want to is besides the point, I just want to know how it would affect the fuel systems)

Vigilante

My understanding... Advancing the timing closer to when the piston is at TDC increases your HP. Low octane fuel will also cause knocking/pinging/detonation in a high compression engine (I consider anything to be high compression if it is 11:1 or higher- check your manual for your bike's compression ratio, if it say like 9:1, the effect of octane boost may be nil or even less perf). If higher octane fuel is used, you can advance the timing further without detonation and can make more power.

I agree with everything Dragracer stated. After several running high compression engines in old race cars, playing with the timing can make quite a difference with different fuels. Some (most) engines advance and retard spark by themselves either electronically or with vacuum control. If you use higher octane fuel it will decrease detonation during heavy load conditions (acceleration) so you can increase the spark advance for better performance.
Switching fuels without changing other parameters like timing, compression ratio, boost psi, elevation (air density), engine temp, even spark plugs may either not have much effect or be detremental in performance. Unless you want to fine tune many of these things in an iterative process, your money may be better spent on a suspension upgrade or lighter weight parts.

tokin

it'll eat your shit right up.

Vigilante

Trick fuel at the 76 station... Either 105 Octane or 115 Octane, you choose- I don't know what else it has in it, but it's a pretty blue color and smells like daisies (well, except for the smokin' rubber smell which offsets it quite a bit). ~6.80/gal

My old cars love the stuff, but they don't get it often at that price.

tophyr

VP Bah. R-Tech mmmmmmmmmmm.

FastCat

Does R-Tech offer an oxygenated fuel?

gilberjj

ethonal will eat through rubber hoses over time, but your injectors should be fine. To run e85, use stainless lines for fuel, and you'll be great.